Lahore Bombing
A suicide car bomb ripped through an FIA and Special Investigations buildings in Lahore early this morning killing a dozen people and injuring scores more, of whom 11 are said to be in critical condition. The blast also damaged a neighbouring school, and many of the casualties were parents returning from their daily school run. According to Dawn, eight of the dead were women.
The Tehreek-e-Taliban have claimed responsibility and termed it as a retaliation against US drone attacks and the Pakistan military operation in South Waziristan. I don't buy that. This appears to me to be most probably a retaliation against the killing of Qari Zafar and / or the capture of other high profile TTP and Al-Qaeda terrorists in Karachi. Then again one can't always expect much logic from the Taliban and their cohorts.
It most certainly is not the case that “besides other neighbouring countries, India’s RAW agency is also involved. Israel and other countries could also be involved,” as explained by the (hopefully soon to be erstwhile) Punjab law minister Rana Sanaullah. I wonder which other neighbouring countries besides India could be involved? It can't be Nepal, Manisha Koirala is from Nepal and she's mighty fine so certainly not them. Must be the Bhutanese then.
It is an absurd state of being that this bombing makes me more anxious than the two recent bombings in Karachi, the latter of which happened a few hundred meters from my office while I was still at the office. But its easy to reassure oneself after sectarian violence because there is method to the madness, there are specific targets involved and it is possible to avoid those targets, or at least one imagines that it is.
The return of violence at a time when things were getting somewhat better is a real blow, and one can only hope that this is not an indication of things to come. And while messers Zardari, Gilani, Malik, etc., may try to milk this situation politically, there is sound logic in that argument. At the height of the violence in Punjab it was common to hear people speculating about the army taking over, many actively encouraged the army to do so, but since the lull in violence talk of the army coming into power has died down. Troublesome political issues such as the transfer of power by the CDGK and the appointment of associate justices to the Supreme Court have been resolved politically. Insecurity felt by the state and its citizens invariably leads to authoritarian and illiberal thoughts.
One must also hope that this event does not dampen the resolve of the military and law enforcement agencies against taking actions against Islamist militants, which have met with considerable success in recent weeks and months.
The Tehreek-e-Taliban have claimed responsibility and termed it as a retaliation against US drone attacks and the Pakistan military operation in South Waziristan. I don't buy that. This appears to me to be most probably a retaliation against the killing of Qari Zafar and / or the capture of other high profile TTP and Al-Qaeda terrorists in Karachi. Then again one can't always expect much logic from the Taliban and their cohorts.
It most certainly is not the case that “besides other neighbouring countries, India’s RAW agency is also involved. Israel and other countries could also be involved,” as explained by the (hopefully soon to be erstwhile) Punjab law minister Rana Sanaullah. I wonder which other neighbouring countries besides India could be involved? It can't be Nepal, Manisha Koirala is from Nepal and she's mighty fine so certainly not them. Must be the Bhutanese then.
It is an absurd state of being that this bombing makes me more anxious than the two recent bombings in Karachi, the latter of which happened a few hundred meters from my office while I was still at the office. But its easy to reassure oneself after sectarian violence because there is method to the madness, there are specific targets involved and it is possible to avoid those targets, or at least one imagines that it is.
The return of violence at a time when things were getting somewhat better is a real blow, and one can only hope that this is not an indication of things to come. And while messers Zardari, Gilani, Malik, etc., may try to milk this situation politically, there is sound logic in that argument. At the height of the violence in Punjab it was common to hear people speculating about the army taking over, many actively encouraged the army to do so, but since the lull in violence talk of the army coming into power has died down. Troublesome political issues such as the transfer of power by the CDGK and the appointment of associate justices to the Supreme Court have been resolved politically. Insecurity felt by the state and its citizens invariably leads to authoritarian and illiberal thoughts.
One must also hope that this event does not dampen the resolve of the military and law enforcement agencies against taking actions against Islamist militants, which have met with considerable success in recent weeks and months.
Labels:
Pakistan
45 comments:
I'm pretty sure neither Nepal or Bhutan border Pakistan.
But anyway, I was going to write a post this weekend on the security in the country being much better (if you compare the statistics of attacks and casualties in Oct/Nov of 2009 to right now, it's night and day) and wondering why this is the case. Good thing I didn't write it.
They are SAARC members though - yes, the organization still exists. Lets also not forget that Mr. Sanaullah mentions neighbouring countries, India and Israel but also other countries, thus making it possible to also blame Kiribati.
I should have mentioned that it is going to be interesting to see how PML(N) reacts; will they adopt their default position of making overtures to the army, will they ignore the situation or will they come out with a clear stance on terrorism.
Two things
a) The agencies should stop renting out land in purely residential areas regardless of how 'under cover' these premises might appear to be (and clearly their cover isn't working)
b) The thing i find most confusing about the 'illiberal' twats is that how would things be any different under army rule in the province. The army has complete control over intelligence gathering and the military operation anyway, if they couldn't protect the GHQ, how the heck will they guard isolated intelligence agency offices scattered across the province. The worrying thing is that while the militants have taken plenty of hits over the last few weeks, their ability to coordinate attacks in urban centers doesn't seem to have diminished. which in all honesty points to the fact they're resource channels (both material and informational) are still active. 700 kg of C4? thats nearly a ton of explosive material which was just conveniently driven into the city from god-knows-where...the intelligence buoyz really need to step-up their game here....
invite america into your country and see it fall apart.
pakistanis it seems are not precluded from those many who fail to learn from history.
sad but predictable.
@anon283572398523:
How the hell does the US get dragged into this? Unless you feel it's perfectly acceptable for an elected government or people to base foreign policy on what a couple of hick, no-good, worthless effete knobjockeys armed with retard genes would like us to do. Yes, let's placate militancy.
@umair:
when have our buoyz ever done their job? aside from getting us a foothold in afghanistan vis-a-vis setting up the taliban.
oh wait. fuck.
I wonder if any of you guys got the following article emailed to you by some 'uncle' who insists our generation is too naive to know the truth about India's mal-intent.
Fair warning, the claims are all speculative and we have to assume that the un-named author is telling the truth about a "secret document" that we have to assume "exists."
Even as India and Pakistan were actively engaged in laying a framework for normalizing their relations in the aftermath of Operation Parkaram (Dec 2001 – Oct 2002), RAW’s Counter Intelligence Team – X (CIT-X), assigned to conduct subversive operations targeting Pakistan was working relentlessly to destabilize the country.
According to well placed sources the details of these plans came to light once a copy of the classified document detailing these activities was accidentally lost and became available for public scrutiny.
The strategy to advance the interaction with Pakistan on the diplomatic channels, while perpetrating acts of terrorism on a parallel track, was envisaged after the failure of Indian spell of coercive diplomacy vis-à-vis Pakistan during the Premiership of Atal Bihari Vajpaee. The document lays out the extensive espionage network dovetailed into the diplomatic missions in Central Asia, particularly Afghanistan, and Middle East which the Indian under cover intelligence operatives utilize to rake trouble not only in FATA but in Pakistani hinterland as well.
As per details given in the purloined paper, agents for anti-Pakistan subversion were trained in 57 training camps established in the IHK, East Punjab, Uttar Pradesh, Rajasthan, Gujarat, Madhya Pradesh, Maharashtra, Karnataka and Assam. Activists of anti Pakistan nationalist groups were the focus of Indian search for recruits who received cash weapons and ammunitions from undercover RAW operatives masquerading as Al Qaeda agents. While sections of the Taleban have been named as perpetrators of some of the most heinous and bloody acts of subversion in Pakistan, it were their Indian handlers who manipulated the invisible strings. Mossad’s tactics of infiltrating Palestinian resistance acted as model and provided the modus operandi for CIT – X to stir insurgency on Pakistan’s Western border that, hitherto fore, had remained free from a military threat.
Apart from concentrating on the FATA Region, stoking the fires of sub-national movements in Pakistan can be identified as one of the vulnerable area where Indian Agencies are focused; reveals the document. Targeting interior regions of Sind province, Seraiki belt and the Northern Areas of Pakistan forms pivots of the Indian plan, receiving riveting and ceaseless attention of CIT – X , reveals the classified document.
Part Deux - If you havent shot yourself already, that is.
CIT “X” OPERATIONS
1. A declassified document of RAW has revealed CIT ‘X’ Operations which spells out the Mossad / RAW / CIA plot against Pakistan Indicating that Pakistan has been effectively engaged in for a long hot summer as the “Summer Offensive Continues”. Following contents are the proof that Pakistan has been looking for:-
a. Tactics of the Dragon Policy. In retaliation to the alleged unending terrorist pursuits of Pakistan, RAW and MOSSAD had conceived the “Summer Offensive” a year ago. Modus operandi has been successful. The operational tactics are:-
(1) Intelligence has successfully tapped known international drug and mafia dons against Pakistan. CIT “X” is effectively training agents for covert operations in Pakistan. Under the Vajpayee government, the CIT “X” and other sensitive organizations were authorized to strengthen contacts with sleeping agents, and recruit new front men to carry out covert operations in Pakistan.
(2) All possible international criminal and mercenaries, including Afghans were engaged for covert purpose during LK Advani’s tenure in the Home Ministry. CIT “X” is actively involved in drug trafficking to finance its covert operations.
(3) Illegal poppy is being cultivated in bulk in Himachal Pradesh, Arunchal Pradesh, Mizoram and Uttar Pradesh. Drug barons have close links with their Afghan counterparts, completely controlled, and continuously monitored by various intelligence agencies. India today stands as the fifth largest country in the world in the production of illicit opium. Laos is 4th with 20 metric tons and has directly tied up with RAW and internal drug barons. Some people of Indian origin living in Surinam and Holland have been engaged to facilitate Indian agencies in drug trafficking. Under the benign patronage of CIT “X” the business of drug trafficking is flourishing and the money earned is accounted for and is being directed towards covert activities in Pakistan.
(4) The summer offensive includes establishment of 57 training camps in Occupied Kashmir, East Punjab, Uttar Pradesh, Rajasthan, Gujrat, Madhya Pradesh, Maharashtra, Karnatka and Assam to train and launch terrorists inside Pakistan. Trainees are generally drawn from the Indian hatched dissident groups of Mohajir Qaumi Movement (MQM), Jiye Sindh Mohaz,
b. Offensive under Diplomatic Cover (The MOSSAD Hands)
(1) RAW Centers at London, Dubai, Iran, and South Africa operate against Pakistan jointly with Israeli MOSSAD. However, for its summer offensive RAW in a joint effort with MOSSAD has laid out a whole network around Pakistan to ensure success through destabilization.
(2) During Wana operations the miscreants were fed cash, weapons and ammunition indirectly by RAW operatives under cover of Al-Qaeda. Mossad and AMMAN have also contributed heavily towards the funding and material requirements for those operations.
c. Ministry of Information and Security (Iran’s Involvement)
(1) Iran, having contiguous borders with Pakistan, is a hot bed of intrigues and constant source of support and inspiration to RAW functionaries. The Indian Embassy at Tehran and Consulates in Zahidan, Mashhad and Bandar Abbas are actively engaged in establishing links with disgruntled elements of Balochistan and Sindh for destabilizing these provinces. RAW is maintaining contacts / their sources / links in Pakistan through their consulates at Zahidan and Dubai. Most of the staff at Indian Consulate in Zahidan is from intelligence / security organizations including RAW, Intelligence Bureau and Military Intelligence. Irani intelligence has been providing reliable information and support to RAW operations by using disgruntled Shia elements in Pakistan.
And Part 3. Sorryto AKS and Ahsan, but hey, it's more for us to rip apart, right?
d. Intelligence Model
(1) This intelligence model is an improvement on the practices of MOSSAD, which has infiltrated several Jewish agents into the occupied territory of Palestine as Muslims. These agents practice Islam like any ordinary Muslim. Mingle into local Muslim population just to wait for the appropriate time to strike. While Taliban and Al-Qaeda are getting the blame and Pakistan gets the rap for “not doing enough” by US and FRIENDLY” Afghan authorities
e. UAE Angle
(1) UAE is being used as a launching pad for terrorist activities in Pakistan. Agents are getting hold of young, disgruntled elements and after carrying out their proper brainwashing, they are dispatched to Dubai. Indian Consulate in Dubai is issuing temporary passport to these activists for getting training / briefing. After completion of their formal training, they are launched into Pakistan to carry out their terrorist / sabotage activities.
f. Fake Currency
(1) To cripple the economy of Pakistan, RAW has taken it upon itself the responsibility of pumping fake currency into Pakistan through various illegal means.
g. Subversion
(1) To fan flames of Sindhi Desh Movement subversive literature, published from Bombay and Jammu e.g. Sindh Sujag. Sindh Rises, Sindh Parcham, Sangat and lot of other subversive material is being pumped into Sindh clandestinely. Whereas, RAW is morally and maerially supporting the Saraiki Movement in southern Punjab. Regional Political Parties like Saraiki Suba Mahaz, Pakistan Saraiki Party and Saraiki Sahaliya Sangam are being effectively sponsored. Subversive literature in huge quantity is being published on the subject.
h. Balwaristan Movement
(1) RAW is also involved in sponsoring Balwaristan Movement. It is being organized under Abdul Hamid, self styled Chairman of his own faction of Balwaristan National Front based in Delhi. The Front is working for the independence of Northern Areas. It has been sending into Pakistan a highly subversive material from abroad.
2. The hostile intelligence operatives are making concerted / unified attempts to achieve their aim of destabilizing Pakistan through a well conceived / articulated plan. Pakistan needs to counter it by utilizing all means available.
Smci must be appreciated for the diligence and energy - if not creativity - with which he posted this. As an Indian, I would really proud if RAW really is able to pull all of that off. Now, don't mistake me. I'd rather wish nothing evil ever happened and our children on either of the border had bright, healthy future that included bonds of friendship. But that's not reality, isn't it?
RAW and ISI are just two organizations amidst a multitude of Machiavellian interest groups with narrow, parochial interests that will continue to dirty the waters. What I meant to say comes from my impression about RAW (and this reflects the impression of a lot of middle class, urban Indians). We see them as some bungling, disorganized, corrupt, highly politicized bunch. While there might be some bright minds with creative ideas, as in all things Indian, it falls apart when it comes to organization and execution. If you'd see our police stations, our control systems, the command and control processes they inherited from the Brits, you'll see what I mean. If you ever see our traffic cops you'll not only be reassured, you'll probably die of hysterical laughter.
That being the logic, one should assume that there isn't any difference between ISI and RAW, right? But not so fast. RAW is a civilian organization. With that comes a lot of baggage that impeded effective operations. As all things Indian, it's a labyrinth of races, castes, religions, regions, languages, political motivations, nepotism, and varying intellect. ISI doesn't suffer such pandemonium - it's much more homogenous, particularly so because it is a military org. And we know the military in our countries is much more professional, more educated (yes, despite their misguided adventures in Pakistan), better organized. In that sense, ISI is more like Mossad - it's driven by passion, survival, and a tight knit band of elite corps. Comprende, Smci?
Guess not. If you really desire for such visions of gloom and death and India's devious designs, I offer you one other scenario. [It's only hypothetical; don't go leaking this out to DR. Hamid and other unkulls,]. Imagine, yeah, imagine that one of our many-handed, many-headed gods suddenly took a pity on us for a change and showered us with a lot of moolah. This could be in the way of all NRIs in Amrika returning to Bharath Mata with their sacks of dolaars. Then, RAW guys - they ake this monies and puts them in big hawai jahaazes (C-130s?) and drops them monies all over Baluchistan, FATA, parts of Sindh. Day after day, right before every namaaz. How would a poor bastard struggling on a sun-baked hillside in these parts for a fistful of potatoes receive this? Would you know what it does the economic and political structures? Is this any different from IMF or World Bank or Amrikis or Saudis piping aid from decades through a select few?
Mr. Smci, do you have any understanding of rudimentary economics? Do you know what history means? Do you know what ails Pakistan (which I do not wish on anyone, least of all estranged cousins)? You are the plague that afflicts Pakistan.
Sorry about all the typos in my previous post, Five Rupees. I should have run through it once and proofed it.
umair said:
"The thing i find most confusing about the 'illiberal' twats is that how would things be any different under army rule in the province. The army has complete control over intelligence gathering and the military operation anyway, if they couldn't protect the GHQ, how the heck will they guard isolated intelligence agency offices scattered across the province. The worrying thing is that while the militants have taken plenty of hits over the last few weeks, their ability to coordinate attacks in urban centers doesn't seem to have diminished. which in all honesty points to the fact they're resource channels (both material and informational) are still active. 700 kg of C4? thats nearly a ton of explosive material which was just conveniently driven into the city from god-knows-where...the intelligence buoyz really need to step-up their game here...."
the army doesnt have complete control of intelligence. lets not forget that both the IB and FIA are civilian intelligence agencies, with civilian heads. similarly, the local provincial police all have their own intel gathering means (special branch, CID). the army collects intelligence on a much grander scale, and has a much bigger task in front of it naturally. but the prevention of suicide attacks and militant activity, esp in urban areas, falls way more on the other intelligence agencies. plus, we all know that when it comes to intel, everyone always knows the failures and never really knows the countless success our boys have had over the past several months. the TTP and al-qaeda are shadows of themselves. and one attack on the FIA is to me no way, to me atleast, a sign that the TTP is back. it could very well be a cornered cat sort of attack. the leadership of the TTP has been decimated, and they are certainly not organized structurally as they were several months ago. the successful army operations in bajaur and swat have made these goons scurry for cover. i would expect there will be arrests pretty quickly related to these attacks.
'Grander tasks'...pray enlighten us all as to what 'grand tasks' does the mother-of-all-agencies (as described by Kamran Shafi) have on its platter...tasks that are apparently more important than monitoring where one tonne of explosive material is coming from and where its currently going. Oh yes i forget...they're probably gathering intelligence data on the to-be-enleashed soon Ghazwa-i-Hind and the re-colonization of Afghanistan...
Our civilian intelligence agencies are ill-equipped to handle the most basic forms of intelligence gathering...i remember reading about a blog post either here or on cafepyala on how IB and FIA 'under-cover' agents actually operate. If the ISI and the military has been eating up such a large part of our budget, surely nows the time when it needs to step up and help the other less fortunate agencies.
first of all, even quoting a crank like kamran shafi doesnt bode well for any discussion. in any case, the responsibility of the ISI is primarily collecting intelligence against domestic and foreign enemies. this intelligence is then passed on to the provincial home secretaries (yes, a civilian) who then can choose what he wants to do with it. he can behave like a responsible adult and instruct law enforcement agencies to be on high alert, or he can behave like the rest of our low IQ bureaucrats and sit on his ass. perhaps the link below will answer some of the questions with this regard. secondly, regardless of how the civilian agencies operate, their job is as paramount as that of MI or ISI. the IB is a huge organization, and i am a little skeptical about its inability to be efficient. as i stated, there are several other provincial and local intel gathering means that are available before we can even mention the letters 'ISI.' much of the intelligence collecting and sharing comes from the ISI, and it is quite likely that the success it has had over the past several years has helped many of the civilian agencies. the SIG which was part of the attack today has apprehended several high value targets in and around punjab over the past several years. doesnt sound like an agency 'ill equipped to handle the most basic forms of intel gathering.'
Agencies alerted in advance: Home deptt
LAHORE: Punjab Home Department told all police officers through a circular dated March 4 that terrorists may target the buildings of secret agencies in Islamabad, Lahore and Peshawar, Geo News reported Monday.
It should be mentioned that Lahore was rocked by a massive blast which claimed at least 12 people and injured several others.
The Punjab Home department circular was issued on March 4 to the Punjab police officers, IGP Punjab, AIG Operation, Additional IG Special Branch Punjab, Divisional Commissioner Lahore, Rawalpindi, CCPO Lahore and RPO Rawalpindi.
The circular said the offices of secret agencies in Islamabad, Rawalpindi, Lahore and Peshawar may be hit by the terrorists.
After four days of issuance of this circular, the recent mishap occurred in Lahore, where a secret agency office was targeted.
http://www.thenews.com.pk/updates.asp?id=100253
While I absolutely ADORE being grossly mis-understood, I'd like to just clarify for anyone else here who, like my friend 'RN,' was thrown off by my extra-ordinarily complicated locution.
My text, mocking the citation, is NOT italicized, while the text that IS italicized is that of the inane Hamid-ite that wrote this wild conspiracy-cum-fabrication-cum-what passes for "journalistic expose" in Pakistan nowadays.
The article was posted on several off-beat sites. It was authored anonymously. Its basis is on the assertions of "several well placed sources" that also stay anonymous (surprise surprise). Those un-named sources claim to have 'found' a document. Never mind chain of custody or any other tool used to verify its authenticity. A document which, mind you, would cause a major international incident and universal condemnation of India. That is if most people with brains didn't see it as a fabrication by a lunatic fringe that wants to perpetuate this myth of victimization within the Pakistani 'edoocated klaas.'
Furthermore the article never quotes a single independently verifiable source, or objective document, or historical facts which meet scholarly consensus.
But my apologies. I should have been more clear in the original post. I didn't think all of this needed to be spelled out for my fellow 'paanch rupee walas.'
RN: Wow, that was brilliant. Just imagine, if you'd actually read SMCI's post, you wouldn't have wasted all that breathless ire. Luckily for us all, you did not. Good times.
Please someone should stop this kind of things in Pakistan its so horrible
The Lahore incident is indeed sad but we must look at the bright side also. This was indeed a retaliation of the high-profile captures in the last 3 weeks or so in Karachi and Quetta. The rate of suicide bombings in major cities have reduced considerably. We are near to put an end to this menace but it will have its price.
Oopsie! My apologies, gentlemen, my bad. As for reading it, Ahsan, I did read it but I could have / should have been more attentive and brought a little English language to it. In retrospect, I will admit I let the emotion get ahead of me and lost the cause as the rambling text shows. Oh my, is this how the Hamid-ites sound? At any rate, what ammo for them!
RN, don't even worry about it bro. There's a little Hamid-ite in all of us.
My question for the more intellectually astute Pakistanis out there is this: how do we deal with these conspiracy theories?
I've been lambasted at plenty a chai-party for employing elementary Socratic dialogue questioning the a priori underpinnings of widely held Pakistani grand strategic aims.
Not the least of which issues from relatives of Pak Military personnel.
It's one thing if the lay people are easily convinced of illogical premises. But I've had former CEOs and CFOs regurgitate this non-sense as if it were unquestionable fact.
And quite frankly, being told that the opinions of these folks don't matter because they have no say in how the state acts is insufficient. At some point the real decision-makers in Pakistan are going to make a strategic compromise with their Indian counterparts and leave their own countrymen bewildered, having fed them nothing but paranoia and compounded ignorance for decades.
It's akin to the idiotic vitriol that many Republicans are spreading about the President. At some point you'll have to compromise with this guy and your own constituents are going to crucify you for doing it.
So, how do you peel back the generational layers of deliberate, state-driven brainwashing?
you could start by admitting those parts of these wild conspiracy theories that are somewhat true, instead being thrown into a wild defensive fervour of 'this war is right for pakistan' when it blatantly is america's bidding.
its is true, the cia does have a vested interest in destabilising pakistan and keeping pakistan's army preoccupied with killing its own people. obviously RAW has no issues with this as any such internal conflict in pakistan only weakens its position on the border, specifically through its proxies in kashmir. there is also documented evidence of mossad and israeli forces having contingency plans in place (with the cia) to raid sensitive pakistani nuclear sites in the event of any military breakdown.
these are facts. deal with them honestly and they won't become wild conspiracy theories everytime a bomb goes off. try to brush them under the carpet or labelling them irrelevant will only feed further contempt.
capish?
@smci: You cannot legislate for someone's inherent tendency towards bigotry. All conspiracy theories emanate from bigotry/xenophobia/racism or mild forms of retardation. When people are not governed by logic there's little you can do enforce some semblance of rationality into their world-view.
Just look at anon above, taking quite a judicious view of what exactly 'fact' means.
http://pkpolitics.com/2010/03/07/jawab-deyh-7-march-2010/
finally, gen. hamid gul gets a whooping on television.
Not on unfortunate Lahore blast, but in general,
I have a feeling, that Army & Co(isi etc) are having some kind of confidence boost before/after baraders & other naughty boyz arrest, several things happening around in different directions with both hard & soft factors and we (Pak) would soon (IMHO) appear as driver in seat. A relatively visible stability & prevailing peace is a kind of encouragement towards this ownership, but has high chances of a flying jet with limited fuel and conditions unchecked, killing his pilot when crashes. lets keep the hope alive and ambitions checked if any such thing exists in Pak.
@Anonymous,
"there is also documented evidence of mossad and israeli forces having contingency plans in place (with the cia) to raid sensitive pakistani nuclear sites in the event of any military breakdown. "
Man, classic..
What documented evidence are you talking about?
I dont the History of Pakistan-Isreal relations that well but what has Isreal done to Pakistan and its people that they gleefully attach its name with Raw and CIA?
Is it because Israel kills Muslims in Palestine or something more personal to Pakistanis(I mean the nut case ones)?
"Those whom the gods wish to destroy they first make mad."
@ Anon
Whether "this war is right for Pakistan" is irrelevant.
The point is that the war was inevitable given the choice that faced Musharraf in '01.
Do you honestly think Pakistan would be better off if Musharraf had told Bush to go screw himself in reponse to the post 9/11 ultimatum? There isn't an Army Chief or Civilian politician in Pakistan's history who would have been retared enough to say no to Bush under those circumstances.
If avoiding crippling international sanctions and the prospect of war against an international coalition, lead by vastly superior militaries, is considered by you to be doing "America's bidding," then that's your own ideologized and gloriously deluded opinion. I say we ought to pursue the same course a thousand times over if it means avoiding widescale destruction at the hands of the rest of the world.
As for what "vested stake" the CIA has in destabilizing Pakistan, I beg you, pray tell your logic. Because if I was in the CIA, the LAST thing I want is a country riddled with Muslim ideologues to be destabalized. If anything, I want the training of its military officers to be inextricably linked to fealty to the United States. Which is probably why FACT: Historically, almost every Pakistani General of any weight or worth has been a student or graduate of the Defense Intelligence Agency in Virginia.
Again, taking this logic further, why on Earth would you want the one stabilizing force in Pakistan to be widely discredited by its own people? If anything, you WANT the Army to be stabilizing a benign population that values stability over freedom.
And we ought to learn to distinguish between "contingency" planning for "crap hits the fan" scenarios, and offensive designs for pre-emptive war against a sovereign nation. There is nothing wrong with contingency planning by Israel or the US or India. All of them have a right to protect themselves if security melts down in a nation filled with people devoted to wanton murder of their citizens. The Pentagon has random scenarios for all kinds of kooky invasion plots in the event of regional chaos. There are specific working groups devoted to the subject of drafting such plans on an ongoing basis. It's what responsible governments do.
So all in all, I disagree that what you allude to are objective "facts." What you're doing to starting from the premise that Pakistan is beholden to hostile forces, and then deliberately interpreting history and policy to fit a pre-existing framework of victimization... regardless of how frail the logic of it all is. So to assume these theories are garbage that gets brushed under the carpet is too generous. For garbage atleast has substance. These arguments are just empty nothingness. Lies. Forgeries. Collective Schizophrenia.
@asfandyar
I'm not saying legislating is the solution. Perhaps public discussion and debate of the likes that Ali sent the link for is the answer... if only all people saw these things.
@Ali
I think Mr. Ahmad is using some elementary sophistry which unfortunately Mr. Gul takes the bait on.
Again, this faulty assumption that the loss in Afghanistan is the cause of a unipolar world, the beneficiary of which was allied to Pakistan in the 80s. Ergo, those Pakistanis that worked with the US in the 80s are to blame for all of Pakistan's ills. Gul could simply have alluded to the oldest truism in war, "The enemy of my enemy is my friend."
Which is to say nothing of the fact that the USSR was coming apart at the seams. Eastern Europe was brewing with rebellion. The economy was in free fall, and there was domestic pressure for significant reform. All of which lead the USSR to withdraw from Afghanistan. Not the other way around. The absolutely truth is that the cause of the unipolar shift was multi-causal and complicated, not simply the product of the stubborn resistence of Pathans and cave dwellers.
May Allah bring peace to our country asap. All we can do is only prayers. so please pray for the country.
More proof that just one over can bring the runrate back to normal.
Don't judge me, for I'm (insert The Exordium proclamation here) a Moron too.
@anoop
you clearly don't know israel-pakistani history too well. israel has a long memory and has never forgotten how PAF pilots shot down Israeli planes in both the '67 and '73 war (this was, of course, in an age where pakistan itself decided what its people risked their lives for. now we have our new baap, america.):
'67:
'PAF Flt. Lt. S. Azam became the only pilot from the Arab side to have shot down 3 IDF/AF aircraft within 72 hours and also the only pilot to have shot down 3 different aircraft types of the IDF/AF. He was, subsequently, decorated by Jordan, Iraq, Syria and Pakistan.
'73:
'On 23 October 1973, PAF pilot Flt. Lt. M. Hatif on deputation to Egyptian Air Force (EAF) was flying a EAF MiG-21 in a defensive combat air patrol (CAP) over Egypt when he was vectored towards an intruding Israeli Air Force (IDF/AF) F-4 Phantom. In the ensuing dogfight, Flt. Lt. M. Hatif shot down the Israeli Phantom.'
On 26 April 1974, PAF pilot Flt. Lt. Sattar Alvi on deputation to No. 67 Squadron, Syrian Air Force (SAF) was flying a SAF MiG-21FL Fishbed (Serial No. 1863) out of Dumayr Air Base, Syria in a two-ship formation with a fellow PAF pilot and the Flight Leader, Sqn. Ldr. Arif Manzoor. The Ground Controller, also a PAF officer, Sqn. Ldr. Salim Metla, vectored the two PAF pilots to a formation of 2 Israeli Air Force Mirage IIICJs and 2 F-4 Phantoms that had intruded into Syrian airspace over the Golan Heights. In the engagement that took place at 1532 hours, Flt. Lt. Sattar Alvi shot down an Israeli Mirage IIICJ using his MiG-21's R(K)-13 Air-to-Air Missile. The pilot of the downed Israeli Mirage was Capt. M. Lutz of No. 5 Air Wing, who ejected. The remaining Israeli fighters aborted the mission. The 2 IAF Mirage IIICJs were from Hatzor AFB and the 2 IAF F-4 Phantoms were from No. 1 Air Wing, Ramat David AFB, Israel.[35][36]
'Flt. Lt. A. Sattar Alvi became the first Pakistani pilot, during the Yom Kippur War, to shoot down an Israeli Mirage in air combat.He was honored by the Syrian government.[37] Other aerial encounters involved Israeli F-4 Phantoms;
Pakistan Air Force did not lose a single pilot or aircraft during this war.'
and @smci:
everything you said is true and actually backs my position that pakistan did what it did because it was shit-scared.
no other reason. it was scared of what america would do to it hence it took part in a vicious invasion leading to the deaths of thousands of innocents.
there was a time when pakistan was astute enough to be independent, strong and not the neighbourhood scaredy cat. oh well.
MOST importantly though: by being scared then, in 2001, pakistan embarked on a series of acts that will be FAR worse for it in the long run (indeed, possible civil war in the next 50 years and break up of country) than had it just not been scared and dealth with the short-term wrath of america (which incidentally could not have hurt pakistan too much - america has a habit of going after weak, dysfunctional, santion-depleted countries - and even then fails to do well without the support of suitable puppets like pakistan).
beggars can't be choosers. and pakistan chose to be a beggar.
see the irony?
I live in Model Town and the bomb sent a sh....oh! words can't encapsulate the horror....the horror!
it nearly killed me.
@ Anon
Pakistan was shit scared because virtually the entire world thought toppling the Taliban was a justifiable response to the stubborn harboring of fanatics responsible for carrying out one of the most spectacular acts of civilian mass murder in modern history.
It wasn't simply "doing America's bidding." That Armitage even HAD to issue a warning is a sad testament to the basic lack of common sense within the Pakistani policy making apparatus.
Again, what are the underlying assumptions behind your casual use of adjectives like "vicious" invasion. Was there a peaceful way to get Mullah Omar to round up and turn over Bin Laden and Zawahiri? Do you believe these guys were even guilty of corroborating to carry out 9/11? Do you even think 9/11 was what it was? Or was it a sham?
If we don't share common answers for the above questions, then we're living in completely different realities.
As for this supposed Pakistani "astuteness" and "independence," let's not be naive. A nation with a behemoth of an adversary, whose core thesis is against the very idea of Pakistan's existence, can not simply be held at bay unless there are crucial alliances to balance out its overwhelming military and monetary superiority. Pakistan has and will always need alliances to hedge stability against India.
"There was a time..." I'm not sure what time you're referring to?
"As a result of a 1954 mutual defense assistance agreement, the United States provided nearly $2.5 billion in economic aid and nearly $700 million in military aid to Pakistan between 1954 and 1964. Since the United States first began its aid program to Pakistan, our assistance has come in many forms from a number of different agencies.
-- Lawrence Korb
You say "...Pakistan embarked on a series of acts that will be FAR worse for it in the long run..."
It's funny, because you see siding with the kuffar as the profound cause for Pakistan's ills and a potential civil war. But you don't see the harboring and tolerance of fanatics akin to the Lal Masjid-walas as the defining flaw and cancerous venom spread by the current generation of decision makers as the cause. And the latter is the one that's causing mass death NOW.
"America has a habit of going after weak, dysfunctional, sanction-depleted countries."
Umm... Pakistan is weak compared to most of its neighbors, it's partly why we needed the bomb in the first place.
Name one sector of civil society that is functional in your estimation.
"Sanction depleted?" Didn't Pakistan just apply for a multi-tranched IMF bailout like… last year?
@Anonymous,
You are giving me motive. Not a very strong one at that. But, where is the 'evidence' you keep talking about?
Isreal is just too busy surviving. It ,like Pakistan, is a security state.
I am all ears to hear about your evidence. If I am not wrong you are just blaming Israel because you really hate jews or you just hate Israel killing Palestinians who are Muslims. You wouldn't give a shit if Palestinians were not Muslims. If it was the other way around you would probably celebrate your martial prowess. Just like you celebrate Pakistani pilots shooting down Israeli Planes.
The weird thing is I dont know a single story of any Indian pilot heroically shooting down the enemy planes and I consider myself pretty informed.
I feel Pakistnis tend to buy into this notion of Martial race way too much. You are a prime example.
@Anonymous,
You are giving me motive. Not a very strong one at that. But, where is the 'evidence' you keep talking about?
Isreal is just too busy surviving. It ,like Pakistan, is a security state.
I am all ears to hear about your evidence. If I am not wrong you are just blaming Israel because you really hate jews or you just hate Israel killing Palestinians who are Muslims. You wouldn't give a shit if Palestinians were not Muslims. If it was the other way around you would probably celebrate your martial prowess. Just like you celebrate Pakistani pilots shooting down Israeli Planes.
The weird thing is I dont know a single story of any Indian pilot heroically shooting down the enemy planes and I consider myself pretty informed.
I feel Pakistnis tend to buy into this notion of Martial race way too much. You are a prime example.
The blatant acts of terrorism must not deter the will of Pakistan to fight religious extremism. While we continue to target the top leadership of Taliban and Al-Qaeda we must also build upon corrective programs for thousands who are infected by the Taliban propaganda. Such programs should focus upon deconstructing the myths spread by Taliban. This should include physiological counseling along with provision of employment opportunities where they can become productive members of the society
@smci
firstly - i don't think 9/11 was a sham, i think al-qaeda was responsible. i think it was wrong and they should be brought to account. we differ on the process - and the double standards with which many 'educated' pakistanis approach this process. pakistan did have a choice, it chose fear and it chose to side with the US.
we can debate your facts versus my facts all we want but only time will tell who was right.
in time, pakistan's decision to become an american lackey in 2001 will be looked upon historically as the biggest mistake ever in the country's fractious history because it will, eventually, lead to the break up of the country.
tell me of just one, just one 'terrorist' bombing against the pakistani state which occurred before pakistan started killing its own people on america's orders. just name one (sectarian and political violence does not count). name ONE before 2001. you won't be able to.
the fanatics who you blame for violence NOW did not just start randomly. they saw their country being over-run with us soldiers, blackwater-led armed militias, cia agents. they saw drones blow up villages and saw the active complicity of the state in this betrayal. THEN this cycle of violence started.
who do you think you are kidding with your warped blame-apportioning?
oh and your pointless quote about the 1954 defense agreement. key word is in the first line of your quote 'MUTUAL defense agreement'. nothing pakistan does now is mutual. it begs, takes what is given and does what its told to.
and if you're not smart enough to know the difference between a country crippled by sanctions and one that takes loans from the IMF (99% of the world) then you need to catch up on some reading.
@anoop
you make no sense. martial race, martian race? what are you on about? you want evidence, go look it up. by your standards of evidence, there was no pakistani involvement in the mumbai attack. show ME evidence. lol.
Ha ha ha..!!
after reading this shit I can certainly say that not a single chance you pakis will miss when you want to compare yourself with india or drag india in middle of any nonsence issue . Why the fuck RAW will involve in a karachi attack? Pakistan has enough terriorist to handle this job very well .
@ anon
"pakistan's decision to become an american lackey in 2001"
What? Give us some credit, we've been American lackeys for a long time. Hell even during the Korean and Vietnam wars, Karachi was a stopover for many US troops.
Ayub Khan's great economic successes wouldn't have been possible without American aid - we've always profited from war haven't we?
"sectarian and political violence does not count"
Why not? Many of the actors, especially in Punjab, were responsible for terrorist acts after 9/11 were previously involved in murdering Shias and Christians.
Look I agree with you in that Pakistan shouldn't be acting out of fear and it should look after its own interests but by God man incubating the Taliban regime or Kashmiri militants has never been in our interest. As Ahsan pointed out in an earlier post, the Pakistani army's logic for supporting these groups disappeared the day we tested our nukes.
We can learn a lesson or two from history; supporting competing groups in Latin America helped neither the US nor Russia, it just ended up killing people and destabilizing countries.
And I'm not against Pakistan supporting a political group in Afghanistan. But the Taliban were the wrong choice because once they fairly soon after getting into power stopped working in our interest (though some members of our armed forces were complicit in this because they saw themselves working in the larger Islamic interest).
Screw democracy shemocracy. Our interest in Afghanistan are best safeguarded by an Afghan government that has some control and can provide security, does not give sanctuary to international terrorist, doesn't take part in heinous crimes against women, doesn't make us look bad for supporting them, does its trade through our ports and gives preference to our companies.
@Anonymous,
"you make no sense. martial race, martian race? what are you on about? you want evidence, go look it up. by your standards of evidence, there was no pakistani involvement in the mumbai attack. show ME evidence. lol."
I discovered this romanticism towards Martial feats with Pakistanis. Thats what I wanted you to convey. You are a prime example of that. Pakistani planes shot down Isreali ones.. So what? You have learned from your mistakes with India! lol..
Anyway, when I asked you why Pakistanis blame reason you went on and on about dog fighting. Is there a more concrete reason why Israelis would target Pakistan? Israel is not in your neighbourhood and they dont perceive you as a threat. I think you want them to target you so that you will have another 'enemy' to foam about.
Regarding Mumbai, isn't Kasab the biggest evidence you got? What about all the Civilians who saw him shoot people and the CCTV camera and TV footage. Wasn't is accepted by Mr.Malik that Kasab was indeed Pakistani? Why did your govt accept him as a Pakistani citizen? And, I almost forgot.. What about Geo showing he came from Rural Punjab?
I think I know all the possible answers you might come up with for the above questions as I've conversed with various nut-case Pakistanis who believe Mumbai was the handiwork of RAW.. But, still saying Mumbai was a fraud hurts as so many of my citizens perished in it. But, I'll take solace from the fact that many many Mumbai's have taken place in Pakistan as the Jihadi infrastructure cultivated by ISI to fight in Afghanistan and Kashmir have come home to roost. The Jihadi weapon is hurting Pakistan way more than it is India.
@AKS
firstly, pakistan may have been american lackeys for a long time, but in 2001 they agreed (for the first time ever) to be so in the pursuit and killing of their own people.
secondly, you may agree with ahsan's logic but, quite simply, it doesn't make sense. pakistan's strongest weapon is not its nuclear status, this is simply a defensive, last-resort weapon. it's strongest offensive (and in part defensive) readily deployable weapon is the presence of proxy armies within its borders.
to rile them is to commit suicide. to rile them at america's request when they had not once acted against the state is betrayal and deserving of retribution.
thirdly, the sectarian violence was always present in the subcontinent (and indeed the whole muslim world) and those that are involved in terrorism now are doing so out of opportunism - the sectarian groups never had (or have) the widespread backing of the militant islam groups in pakistan.
fourthly, your last paragraph alludes to you wanting a taliban government in afghanistan because they are the only political force there which could come close to your requirements.
and if you want to learn from history, look at afghanistan. relatively modern well-off state in the 1960's, struggling to grow and survive in competitive world (like pakistan now) suddenly accedes to foreign intervention by russia to help eradicate the less-friendly elements of society there (like america is now 'helping' pakistan). fast forward 50 years... and we know what happened. pakistan in 2050 won't be dissimilar.
but historically speaking, selling out to foreign powers ALWAYS ends up being worse for a country than dealing with its issues internally and independently. like i said, pakistan's conflict today is borne out of betrayal at america's request, not because of some festering internal issue.
pakistan is walking to america's tune, and many 'modern' pakistanis love that this is happening now. when these same people have to become asylum seekers in the west in 2040, we'll see who's right in hindsight.
take any example you want from history, there are many.
If you read this and analyze the details of the bomb you will realize that this is almost like the last attempts of Taliban to affect Pakistan economy. The people are really sick of all this now. We want peace in our cities and we want to get rid of this extremist mindset which has taken Pakistan into stone ages.
All I can think of as a sincere Pakistan is that we have seen worst. Whatever is happening as of now is taking us to a better tomorrow of Pakistan. We will have to make this sacrifice once and for all so that the mindset of many is changed to a liberal democratic state with moderate views of the religion as well which guides us to progress.
Anon,
"fourthly, your last paragraph alludes to you wanting a taliban government in afghanistan because they are the only political force there which could come close to your requirements."
I was being facetious there. There is a big part of me that still wants this country to be on the 'side of right', to have values that we are proud of and to act in a manner that is honourable. Supporting the Taliban fulfills none of those criteria.
This is also the reason why I'm against the proxy armies that you speak of. They are wrong because their intent is to deceive and disrupt other countries. If we wish to fight then we should do so honourably and send in our army. But we don't wish to fight, proxy armies are a negotiating tool and I don't think its worked all that well so far.
And Pakistan has gone after its own citizen earlier at the behest of America. Remember Ramzi Yousuf? Not to mention the leftists (surkhay) who were driven into hiding by the Zia regime at the urging of the U.S., one could even claim that ZAB's hanging had tacit support and approval of the U.S.
I agree with you in that we should give primacy to our interests but you absolutely fail to understand that we aren't living in a bubble (appears you are) and can't simply disengage with the rest of the world. You could say that we are bad diplomats but to say that we should disengage is absurd.
Lastly lets move to this egregious statement of yours:
"to rile them is to commit suicide. to rile them at america's request when they had not once acted against the state is betrayal and deserving of retribution."
"Deserving of retribution." Innocent people have died here. There is no justification for their terrorism. You can try to understand the roots of terrorism and curb its growth, that's the right thing to do. But to justify it is wrong and indefensible.
We need to curb extremism and we need to ensure that we don't breed more militants by falsely indoctrinating its citizens so that it can continue its futile proxy wars - those that you admire so much. But that's the first step, if we want change we need to address some major social issues - poverty alleviation, access to justice, empowerment of women and education.
@AKS
firstly, nobody is defending terrorism. if someone seeks to kill innocent people, i'll be the first one to demand their trial and subsequent capital punishment - be it islam-warping militants or trigger happy americans.
'retribution' in that phrase meant against the state and its armed forces/security apparatus involved in the conflict (who incidentally started the conflict) - not against, for example, a visiting cricket team. that is reprehensible in anyone's book.
now that that's clear, you think pakistan is engaged with the rest of the world and that i'm calling for disengagement? what nonsense.
pakistan is enslaved by the us and engaged with nobody else. what i'm calling for is not disengagement but deslavement. pakistan should engage on its terms, not be dictated to and slapped around as and when necessary. this comes back to acting out of fear, some countries do and some don't.
cuba was not afraid despite every single possible tactical and strategic weakness being present in the equation. okay, it's not exactly a successful nation right now but it is FAR better off than pakistan will be when its actions have played out in the coming years.
your allusions to pakistan acting against its own previously are weak and frankly disappointing. don't insult your intelligence by suggesting pakistan's largest internal para-military and military deployment and operations in its history and subsequent casualties are in anyway comparable to the capture of one or several individuals within a limited scope.
the key lies in disengaging from america, learning to live with the fact that pakistan is an islamic nation with an increasingly islamic population. this reality needs to be transformed into policy with islam at its heart so that those that wish to abuse the religion for their own ends cannot do so. automatically, culturally held myths like that of women's inferiority will start to erode if, for once, pakistan took islam seriously.
this may seem like a ludicrous proposition to you, sitting with your western education in a law office in karachi. but 98% of pakistan's population is unlike you in every way. sociological studies have pointed towards this mind-shift and its happening in most muslim countries
where the leaders and leading classes in a post-colonial atmosphere have maintained power illegitimately (egypt-MB, turkey-AKP, morocco - you name it. the shift is occuring).
colonialims cleansing of islam from the muslims psyche is wearing off slowly. the time of our parents and their inherited legacy of 'everything from west = better' is fading - especially the notion of secularism. most well-off pakistanis are a product of this psyche and come through brit-established institutions (kgs, aitchison) which overtly or subtly imprinted this mindset. in fact, karachi grammar school when incepted was only for
'english and anglo-indian children' - no underlying superiority complex there then. lol.
i don't blame you and your ilk for your views on how america and pakistan will form the most amazing tag team and one day pakistan will be a progressive and amazing secular, liberal democracy. it's just the parameters within which you've been brought up. and literally all of you bar one or two (i've met many) have the same views. it is you, not i, who exists in a bubble and was indeed brought up in a bubble which is why you are so divorced from the reality of what pakistan is getting itself into.
@ Anon
Perhaps at this point it would be advantageous to offer plausible hypotheses for what would have happened had Pakistan not cooperated (enslaved itself) with the US after 9/11.
Seeing as how you categorically deny the Musharraf hypothesis of how the US, and most of the rest of the world, would have worked to destroy Pakistan along with Afghanistan.
What do you think would have happened?
Post a Comment